Ask a bitter white middle-class male student!

[Asherian]

But does she have space aids? Or just a fetish for linguistically gifted bearded strangers from the internet/Canadia?

[mountainmage]

She's relatively healthy except for bad arthritis, and I think she's out of the dating game for good, so no X2.

[Oldrac the Chitinous]

Hey, Linguisticator,

What's the deal with that r that people like to tack on to all those Old Norse names, like Jormungandr and Fenrisulfr? Am I supposed to pronounce it as it's own syllable, like "gander" or "sulfur," or am I supposed to try and cram it onto the end of the previous one?

Yours,

Oldracr

[LordRetard]

Before doing any research whatsoever I'll offer the two possibilities, which you've already mentioned.

The first one, which I will mention first because it is unlikely, is that it's a normal Germanic R, most likely an alveolar trill, maybe a guttural R (unlikely, since this was assimilated from French). In which case we'd be looking at a language with extremely flexible phonotactics, which are what determines the possible shape of a syllable. Some languages have extremely simple phonotactics, such as Japanese, which has a maximum syllable of CVC (C is consonant, V is vowel), where the final consonant must be a nasal. Spanish allows for CCVC, where the second consonant must be a lateral or rhotic (L or R). English has comparatively complex phonotactics, allowing for dense words such as "strengths", which is CCCVCCC; not only do very few languages have such an extensive onset, but a three-consonant coda (ending, after the vowel) is extremely rare, which does not lend credence to this theory. Of course, some languages, such as ones in Georgia, have extremely lenient phonotactics, allowing as many as 8 consonants in onset position, if I recall correctly. So what we could have is just a language that allows for extremely flexible phonotactics, and allows such an apparently clumsy ending to a syllable. Note that this is unlikely for a Germanic coda.

The OTHER possibility is that, yes, it's its own syllable. English has this in words like, well, "gander" and "sulphur". This is because English permits what we call "sonorant" rhotics and nasals, that is, they can occupy the nucleus position of a syllable that a vowel will normally take. This particular sound is the "alveolar approximant" and because of its rarity in other European languages, it is known as the "English R". It can occupy onset, nucleus or coda position, ex. respectively, "round", "bird", "air". Other languages also have this feature, including many South Asian languages and a couple of Chinese languages (I believe standard Mandarin is one, although it may be only coda). From what I recall from reading about Sanskrit the use of different elles and arrs is very common within nucleus position.

SO I LOOKED IT UP, and anyway, I have to be made an ass of and it appears to be just very flexible phonotactics. This is not what I was expecting at all, and furthermore I cannot confirm it; but the only rhotic consonant present in Old Norse (and many later Scandinavian languages) is the alveolar trill, which is not normally syllabic (though it can be in some Slavic languages). I've looked at the orthography and there is definitely an r there (although in Icelandic it would be voiceless because they're silly like that). It's times like this when I wish I had better resources than Wikipedia and a couple of poorly written textbooks, but as far as I can tell, you'll just have to say it really fast. Sorry for being so vague but that's my best guess.

[Oldrac the Chitinous]

Thanks for looking into that! "Say it really fast" is an instruction I can follow.
So I wikied "rhotic consonant." I didn't realize that 'r' was so complicated. If there were anybody within earshot of me a few minutes ago, I suspect they would have been more than a little confused:

Rr rr rr rr rr rr. Inverness, Inverness, let's go to Inverness. Rr rr rr rr. D'accord. Crayon. Homard homard homard. Rr rr rr rr rr. Inverness.
Sombrero. Sombrero. Sombrero! Sombrero. Pero pero perro Peru. Yidianr。 Red red red red red red red red red. Sombrero-ro-ro-ro-ro.

Of course, some languages, such as ones in Georgia, have extremely lenient phonotactics, allowing as many as 8 consonants in onset position, if I recall correctly.

Good God.

[LordRetard]

Whenever I was alone, I used to start practicing all of the non-English sounds I know, that's how I learned how to trill. I used to keep myself up at night like that, but now my brother lives here so I try to keep quiet. Still can't sleep, though.

The thing about rhotic consonants is that no one's really in agreement about why they're related, there doesn't seem to be anything that explains why they're related. I've read that they might use similar frequencies but I don't know if that's true.

Anyway: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_l ... consonants

# And the following words begin with eight consonants:

* გვფრცქვნი (gvprtskvni), "you peel us"
* გვბრდღვნი (gvbrdgvni), "you tear us"

[mountainmage]

Why would anyone ever need to use either of those phrases? Unless they're a personified piece of paper/potato.

[LordRetard]

How 'bout a more common word with only six consonants?

მწვრთნელი, (mts'vrtneli), "trainer"

[mountainmage]

Alright, that's better. How would that be pronounced?

[Oldrac the Chitinous]

"Mts'vrtneli".

[mountainmage]

So, mit-iss-ver-teh-nelli?

[LordRetard]

No. I don't think you understand. There are no vowels there. There is no space there. There are only two syllables. You know the pause you get between "s" and "t" when you say "stand"? That's what you get. Now, try to make that sound fluid.

[mountainmage]

If I understood, then I'd be some sort of linguistics major, wouldn't I?

[LordRetard]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nr8F9VheVzM

After 47 seconds; try to see if you can catch that last word. Admittedly the audio isn't great, but, listen to how much time it takes for them to get those consonants out; that little you can hear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkoojFJw6Mg

Okay, about 1:30; listen for "brtsqindeba".

Also, if you want to hear something else unnecessarily complicated, you should maybe listen to this song again and follow along carefully. I feel like beating a dead horse today, but not literally.